Post Trib Doctrine believes that the greatest move of God and the greatest harvest of souls that the world has ever seen, will happen immediately before the Lord’s return. (NO Rapture) They quote “Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.”
My response :- “2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day, (The Day of the Lord, i.e. The Tribulation period) cannot begin, except there come a falling away first, (“Apostasia” = Apostacy or a Rebellion against God) and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” This “Apostasia” has to take place BEFORE the Tribulation can begin. This falling away is the OPPOSITE to a revival. NB the timing of these events is critical.
DURING the Tribulation, the greatest harvest of souls that the world has ever seen will occur. The reason for this great revival is “The Rapture” which precedes the “The Day of The Lord.” After the rapture, all the friends, relatives, backsliders and nominal Christians, who are not “True Christians”, and who are not “abiding in Jesus” because they have never been truly “Born Again”, plus millions of others will suddenly realise that the Bible is true. The disappearance of the ‘Bride of Christ” at the rapture, will trigger the greatest revival ever seen. You see if you don’t believe in dispensations, the Bible appears to contradict itself.
Post Trib Doctrine believes there is only one gathering. They quote “Mat 24:29–31; Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they (His Angels) shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (No mention in this passage of any resurrection.)
My response :- Note, 1. There is clearly more than one gathering in 1Cor 15:23 where it says “But every man in his own order: (Order = “Tagma” a series of, a succession.) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (Epeita = thereafter or afterwards) they that are Christ’s at his coming.” That means at His coming for His Bride, the Church. Christ the firstfruits, then there will be a succession, the next in order as seen in 1Thess 4:16 The dead in Christ shall rise first; 1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain are the next in this succession. Afterwards come the tribulation saints, as seen in in Rev 7:9, it seems the OT prophets, and the OT saints may be last, as they appear in Rev 11 18 to be rewarded. (OT prophets, and the OT saints are not part of the Church, as Christ did not dwell in them, nor they in Christ, nor were they indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but The Holy Spirit came upon them as required)
- At the Rapture, the world has no hope of seeing Jesus, as (a) He only comes into the clouds, and (b) it will be all over in the blink of an eye.
- At the Rapture it is JESUS Himself who comes “in the clouds” to gather His Bride unto Himself – 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Jesus does not send His Angels to collect His Bride, He comes Himself!
Please note, the gathering in at the end of the Tribulation, when Jesus sends out the Angels to gather in “His elect” is NOT a resurrection, NEITHER is it a “Translation”; rather it is Jesus gathering up the surviving believers, who got saved after the Rapture, during the tribulation period, but who were not martyred during the Tribulation. These survivors are the people who will populate the earth during the millennial period, as normal human beings like us, but ALL of them will be Christians to start with.
Unlike the Post Trib Doctrine believers, BOTH Mid Trib and Pre Wrath Doctrine believers, agree that the Resurrection / Rapture takes place at the last trumpet in “Rev 11 15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; ……………….. 18 And the nations were angry, and and thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”
From this passage they conclude that the first half of the “Tribulation period” is not GOD pouring out His wrath, but it is merely mens’ wrath against each other in wars etc. because the passage “and thy wrath is come” does not occur until after the 7th Angel sounds his trumpet.
They also quote 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. They equate this last trump 1 Cor 15:52 to be the same as Rev 11:15 i.e. the sounding of the 7 th and final angel’s trumpet. This means that we have two distinct problems here. 1. When does God begin to pour out His wrath in the book of Revelation? 2. Is the Trump of God mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16 the same as the 7th Angel’s trumpet blown in Rev 11:15?
My response :- 1. Let us ask, who is opening the seven seals? That person is the one releasing judgement and wrath upon the earth. In Rev. Ch 6:1 we are clearly told at the very beginning of the 7 years of tribulation that it is the Lamb of God, Jesus Himself opening the seven seals. Therefore Jesus is the one releasing God’s wrath on a wicked and evil world.
Is there further confirmation that this is GOD’S WRATH, not just mens’ wrath against each other in wars etc?
After the fourth seal, read Rev 6:7&8 & power was given to Death, and Hell. And they, Death and Hell killed a quarter of the earth’s population. Men cannot give power to death and hell! Jesus gave Death and Hell this power.
The clincher comes after the sixth seal, in Rev 6:15-17 where we are told that the kings of the earth, and the great men and the rich men, cry out to the mountains and rocks, ‘fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of HIS wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?’
There is no question in the minds of those on earth at that time as to whose wrath is being poured out when the seven seals are opened. This is clearly GOD’S wrath not mens, and it is right at the beginning of the Tribulation Period.
- Rev 11:15 ‘And the seventh angel sounded his trumpet’, does not seem to me to be the same as 1Thess 4:16 ‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first’. I suggest the “Trump of God” is not the trumpet of the seventh angel.
According to Jewish tradition, and agreed to by Jewish Christian believers, the first trump of GOD was blown on the Feast of Pentecost in Exodus 19:19. “And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice.”
One Jewish Christian teacher says “1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of the ‘last trump’ This is not the last trump of Revelation. Revelation had not been written at the time of Paul’s reference to it. The last trump of Revelation 11:15 is the last trump of the Old Covenant signifying the end of Daniel’s seventieth year. The last trumpet for the Old Covenant and the last trump of GOD for end of the Church age are not the same. The last trumpet in Revelation 11:15 for end of the Old Covenant with Israel is an Angel’s trumpet blast, whereas the Last trump for the end of the Church Age is God’s Trumpet, 1 Thess 4:16.
Finally for Part two, we have seen clearly, that it is God and the Lamb of God pouring out their wrath during the entire tribulation period, so consider this, John 15:4 Jesus said “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” If we are abiding in Jesus, and He abides in us, and if the Church has not been taken out first in the Rapture, then during the tribulation He will be pouring out His wrath on Himself, because we are hid in Christ.
Also in light of 1Cor 6:19 our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost who dwells in us, therefore God would also be destroying the temples of the Holy Spirit.
In part three I will give strong scriptural evidence supporting my belief that the Church is already in Heaven during the entire Tribulation period. Don’t miss it.